Still to come: NCIS: New Orleans (CBS), Gracepoint (FOX), The Kingdom (DirecTV), Cristela (ABC), The Walking Dead (AMC), Jane the Virgin (CBS), Marry Me (NBC), Grimm (NBC) and The McCarthys (CBS).

33. The Mysteries of Laura (NBC)

A bigger mystery to me than Laura (or even Laura), is why Debra Messing keeps getting leading roles in TV shows. Or rather, how she picked this one, and who thought the Will & Grace and Smash star was a good fit for a brusque, “badass” awful woman cop show. In the opening moments, we learn that she has a black partner who won’t hesitate to cover her “skinny ass,” and that Detective Laura Diamond (a TV name if I’ve ever heard one) is a morose, protocol-be-damned police woman who can’t help but wonder if anybody has jobs, because HOW DARE people hang out in the park on a sunny afternoon. With its ratings already dropping, I wonder if she will have a job much longer.

Hopefully, it’d rid the world of NBC’s “Woman Crush Weddings,” which apparently is lifted from #WCW, a mind-numbing Twitter hashtag. I’m going to start one: #girlsIwanttofuck. NBC’s Wednesday night block is made up of three grimly serious cops shows (Law & Order: SVU and Chicago P.D. round out the triumvirate), so naturally the marketing campaign devolved into relying on Sophia Bush, Debra Messing and Mariska Hargitay’s considerable sex appeal, rather than being tough workplace role models or whatever.

Laura drives a Volvo, shops at Target and comes equipped with an inspired catchphrase (“You’ve gotta be kidding me!”), deplorable parenting skills and an insulting almost ex-husband Jake (Josh Lucas, never worse) who just can’t bring himself to sign the papers, a family dynamic that sets TV back 43 years. She drugs her children for a private school interview (God forbid these tyrants go to public), and blackmailed a gym teacher with a lot of parking tickets to even get them that interview. Laura actually says, “I’m a mother, with a shiny badge, a loaded gun and very little patience.” There’s the logline that sold the pitch! I think she said that on school grounds, but I could just be imagining that specific horror. It’s like a future Melissa McCarthy movie, except Mysteries of Laura takes itself seriously. You shouldn’t.

Favorite Moments From The Pilot:

1) When Laura Diamond makes a house call, a rich housewife bats her eyelashes; heh, you’re cute, you’re a “middle-aged woman cop…just like on TV!” Mysteries of Laura thinks its clever. Just like pilot director McG probably thinks his name makes people think of anything other than a Happy Meal with explosions.

2) Laura calls men sloppy derisively. The frame widens to find Black Partner spilling popcorn all over the place. Hypocrite alert: Laura’s a slob who eats week old burritos she finds hidden among the piles of crap on her desk.

3) Laura’s kids actually deserve to be drugged and/or murdered. They pee on each other in public and just might be insane. Best of all is when Laura gets called into school, her gun automatically out (you don’t want to go into an elementary school unarmed) and there appears to be BLOOD all over the classroom. But no, it’s just her messy children taking over art class, or whatever. Because bloody classrooms are the best setup for a joke.

The pilot has one pleasure: a mini-Galaxy Quest reunion! Quellek (Patrick Breen) has aged into what appears to be a gay Peter Capaldi, and joins his former Thermian leader Mathesar (the incomparable Enrico Colantoni). The pleasure wears off pretty fast when you realize it had to come on this show. Plus, Quellek gets killed off pretty fast (perhaps fitting), and unfortunately, Alan Rickman does not come prancing in, promising that, By Grabthar’s Hammer, he shall be avenged. Even that probably couldn’t save this show.

32. Z Nation (SyFy)

Oh man, this show is so crummy guys (CRUMMY). It’s close to becoming the designated Drinking Game Show of the week, but I don’t know if the show knows how bad it is yet, and I don’t care enough to find out. And I don’t foresee a shortage of drinking in my future.

It’s SyFy’s answer/rip-off of The Walking Dead, set three years after the first infection. You know how screwed the world would be if a zombie apocalypse happened? DJ Qualls, yes that DJ Qualls, would be military. He practically is a DJ here, living up to his name, with “season tickets to the zompocalypse,” working alone at Camp Northern Light, or something. Even in a dystopia, nobody wants to hang out with DJ Qualls. Qualls is late to evacuate the base, and they leave without him; they immediately fly to their deaths. They’d rather die than hang out with DJ Qualls. I’d rather watch almost anything else than Z Nation.

Z Nation is filled with more nonsensical, military BS talk than the “Z’s” themselves (what a clever term for zombies). The world-saving mission that the surviving dregs of the military are on is called “Operation Bitemark.” Seriously. Most of the tomfoolery is uttered by DJ Qualls, rendering any call sign or operation name about as meaningful as a Bluth family mission. I’d take Operation Hot Mother any day, but I’m a Motherboy.

Speaking of children, there’s also a zombie baby stuffed amid a mission to the CDC, a possible zombie cure, and essentially all four seasons of TWD jammed in an hour. For those who bemoan the AMC show’s deliberate pace, Z Nation provides a terrifyingly awful counter argument. There are several deaths, time jumps and tragedies that befall this boring cast of stock characters, but there’s never a reason to give a shit. We need to care about these people before it matters when they die. Of course, Z Nation is a show where you’re definitely rooting for the zombies to tear into these people so we don’t have to waste any more time on them. The more they kill, the closer to the end of the world, and hopefully, the end of this show.

Favorite Moments:

• “He’s a baby. He makes noise.” “Shut up.”
• LOST refugee Harold Perrinau’s Hammond at one point sighs, “God I hate moral dilemmas.” SyFy has a moral dilemma on whether or not they should keep this show on the air.
• Fantastic zombie rules: “A month ago? That’s like 2 years apocalypse time.”

I actually did like the idea of a pop-up weapons caravan that sells various guns, knives, bullets and other hairy concoctions. I also enjoyed the conceit that the zombie’s speed depends on how long they’ve been dead: they’re fast immediately after, then slow as time goes on. This doesn’t explain why a baby turns into a devastating ferret-like monster once bitten, since zombism presumably doesn’t make you faster. Or so one would think. But there’s not a lot of thought put into Z Nation.

31. Forever (ABC)

Ioan Gruffudd might be the most boring actor on the planet, yet he keeps landing TV roles, his career seemingly as immortal as his title character in this dull show.

At one point during this derivative pilot, Henry (Gruffudd) explains to us in a droll monologue: “My life is just like yours, except for one small difference…it never ends.”

I live forever, no biggie guys. I’m just like you. You can empathize me, relate to my suffering. WHAT THE FUCK?! If an immortal prick tried to befriend me, the injustice would be that I couldn’t friggin’ kill him. My life is just likes yours, except I’m Brad Pitt. My life is just like yours, except I own an island. My life is just like yours, except I’m the orphan of a now extinct alien race.

Henry has “seen a lot,” but hasn’t learn shit about life or his condition over the last 200 years of his life. He just knows that when he dies, he wakes up in the nearest body of water naked, not a scratch on him. He’s Ichabod Crane/Sherlock Holmes without the charm or quirks. He’s understandably obsessed with death, so he works at a morgue along with Joel David Moore (Bones, Avatar), who has been neurotic and awkward as long as this show’s title (For-Ev-Er).

In the opening scene Henry’s the only survivor of a massive subway accident, and even before he gets a cryptic villainous phone call, I was having Unbreakable flashbacks. While it’s not exactly Mr. Glass on the other end, there’s someone else like him out there, and they’re about to engage in a Sherlock/Moriarty battle, with New York as the playground. Or something.

What’s depressing about Forever, or at least, a few of the things that make me depressed, is that the wacky premise is just an excuse to throw Henry into a police procedural opposite Detective Jo Martinez (Alana De La Garza), a woman who escaped Woman Crush Wednesdays, and after one case, gets to bring Henry along during investigations until this show gets cancelled. This job tag-along crap is one of my favorite procedural tropes; if there’s ever a murder involving fantasy football, Red Pandas and IPA’s, I might walk away with a job.

Henry’s lifespan and accumulated knowledge only manifests itself in his keen observational skills. He’s another Psych, Mentalist, Sherlock character, because the public loves seeing assholes who can figure out that you’re allergic to coconuts, have 3 cats, like anal sex and are still emotionally recovering from the death of your postman. Women also love men who pay attention, so Henry’s a ladies man. Throw in a little bit o’ Nazi backstory, and you have Forever, a show I’ll be watching…

Never. Never again, anyways. Unless the Moriarty character is played by Alan Rickman.

30. Manhattan Love Story (ABC)

“I want to write a love story set in Manhattan.”

“Oh my god, what a revolutionary idea, and even better, it already has a ready-made, totally informative, awesome title!”

“Love Story Set In Manhattan? Sounds awkward.”

“Manhattan Love Story, silly.”

“OMG, you’re right.”

A studio exec leans over the coffee table, spilling their mimosa. “Excuse me, did you say Manhattan Love Story? We’ll BUY IT!”

Manhattan Love Story sounds like a vague place holder title a writer would have on his To-Do list, or the barebones plot description of this mostly dreadful pilot. But, I suppose it tells you all you need to know: not to watch it.

In the nightmarish opening moments, Peter (Jake McDorman) walks down the New York street, debating whether or not he’d have sex with the women along his path. Coming from the opposite direction is Dana (Analeigh Tipton), who’s doing the same thing…with purses (she’s debating whether she’d own them, not fuck them, I think). When they pass one another, they both essentially say “Yes” to each other, and this is their unfortunate story.

Neurotic, single and “adorkable” Dana just moved to New York because of a new job. Of course, that’s not really important. What’s important is that she’s single and needs a boy, or so sayeth her evil, manipulative, yoga instructor friend/roommate Amy (Jade Catta-Preta), a character type that only exists on shitty sitcoms.

Amy’s that girl who always has to be in control, forcing her husband-or-whatever David (Nicolas Wright) to enlist his brother, who of course is Peter, to go on a date with Dana. You don’t need me to tell you that it goes terribly. Dana is a klutz with technology/everything, accidentally typing Peter Cooper into her Facebook status (a clever joke mined in Trophy Wife last year). She also calls instead of texts, and does the unbearably painful accidental text ABOUT Peter TO Peter (okay, so I’ve been there). Dana’s a mess, guys.

Whereas Peter is a ladies man who sees women as trophies, which makes sense, because he works for a company that makes trophies, a business that is BOOMING, because America loves to reward everything, not just first place, in order to celebrate mediocrity. You could say the same about Manhattan Love Story and network television, though that might be mistaken for a compliment.

Dana cries on her date, Peter makes fun of her cute list of things she wants to do in NY, and the pair have an awful, dueling stream of consciousness monologue happening in their respective heads at all times. It’s a conceit that might’ve been wonderful on How I Met Your Mother, but here, it emphasizes how little you actually want to hear these characters talk.

Peter and Dana, of course, make up, and have a moment en route to the Statue of Liberty, one of the things on Dana’s list. It’s clear the two of them will have a bumpy road, and I suppose that’s the flimsy hook of the pilot: what touristy things are these mismatched heathens going to do next in the most overseen city in America? Perhaps more importantly: will Dana conquer social media? Judging by the final moments, when she has an embarrassing encounter with her FB relationship status (a joke that would’ve felt biting in 2006), the outlook is about as bleak as this show’s prospects. The show probably won’t last, which is almost a shame, because then my spec script Toledo Love Story won’t get off the ground.

29. Bad Judge (NBC)

You’ll hate this show by the opening frame: Kate Walsh, passed out in an impossible position, wearing a leopard print bra, and shimmery sequin underwear, is jolted awake by the omnipresent alarm clock. She’s late to work, and has to pop pills incessantly to get there in time, driving an insane hippie van en route to Van Nuys Municipal Court, while awaiting the results of her pregnancy test. It’s a testament to how lame this show is, that I feel bad that Van Nuys has the unfortunate duty of taking the brunt of the setting, and Van Nuys is the cesspool of the valley.

Kate Walsh plays Judge Rebecca Wright, and she’s actually not as Bad as you think she is: she’s a slutty, messy alcoholic, sure, but she shows up, and goes well beyond her job description when it comes to helping out Robby (Theodore Barnes), a kid whose parents are in jail because Rebecca put them there. As Judge Hernandez states, “You’re a Judge, not a social worker!” but who really cares? Rebecca may have had wine and cake for breakfast, or so she says, and we’re supposed to revel in how screwed up she is, but she mostly just talks about how bad she is, than actually being bad. She saves Robby from bullies and juvie, makes a nice speech at some boring gala and has friends at the Court, while seeing through the inherent bullshit of Douglas Riller (the normally fantastic Chris Parnell), who’s on trial for having two families or something.

The show also stars Ryan Hansen (Party Down) as Gary, one of Rebecca Wright’s many hook-ups (they have sex in her chambers!). After Gary Busey, he’s her favorite Gary, clearly the one that’s supposed to stick (for the four episodes that this show will last). I think Gary Busey could make a more coherent sitcom than Bad Judge.

Bad TeacherJudge was envisioned as a female Eastbound & Down, with Adam McKay and Will Ferrell trying to spice up a show…created by Anne Heche (THE Anne Heche). What remains is a show that doesn’t know what it is, stumbling out of the gates drunkenly in high heels. Its pilot starts abruptly; I felt like I had a hangover similarly potent to Rebecca’s, not the kind of feeling I want when watching TV.

I expected to despise Bad Judge, but instead, due to its limp existence, found myself completely emotionless. Bad Judge not only lacks laughs, but a pulse. There’s some inkling of a Bad Santa-like relationship between Rebecca and Robby, and it certainly was the most tolerable part about the pilot, but to call it disjointed from the rest of the proceedings is an understatement. It didn’t mesh at all with what the show is supposed to be. Of course, I don’t know if NBC has any idea what Bad Judge is supposed to be, and I’m not going to bother finding out.

Tone Bell (…Whitney), who plays Tedward Mulray (really?), the court security officer and pigeonholed black character, remarks: “2014 is a trip.” Excuse the poor writing (it’s not like Bad Judge sets a high bar), but 2014’s Fall TV is a (bad) trip.

28. Mulaney (FOX)

Saturday Night Live writer-performer and stand-up comedian John Mulaney is talented, likable and a star seemingly perfectly suited for a TV show.

But something has gone horribly wrong with Mulaney. I was told by someone I reasonably trust that Mulaney was originally intended as a meta-sitcom hoping to lampoon the very nature of sitcoms themselves. Instead, what came out is exactly the kind of show that John Mulaney would most certainly revel in making fun of. It’s a crappy, cliche sitcom, one so bewildering and unfortunate, that I’m at a loss of what the hell I just watched.

In the show, Mulaney is a struggling stand-up comedian and writer, nervous for an interview with the pompous TV personality Lou Cannon (Martin “Life’s Too” Short “To Be Wasting His Time On This”). He, of course, gets the job, but it’s a mixed blessing because Lou sucks. While Mulaney struggles with his “dream job,” fellow comic Motif (Seaton Smith) finds himself in the zeitgeist with a new hip joke, “Problem Bitch.” Even if it doesn’t have an ending. He has an 18 hour window to come up with one, until the audience realizes they’re “laughing at nothing.” It’ll take you far less time to realize you’re doing the same thing while watching Mulaney, even with the live studio audience somehow churning out a laugh track.

Whenever I create the League of Extraordinarily Awful TV Characters, pretty much everyone on this show will compete for a spot on the hotly contested roster. Jane (Nasim Pedrad) argues convincingly that definitions of “crazy” for men and women mean entirely different things, but she justifies every bad thing a man has thought about a “crazy” woman in this episode. She’s going through a break up, so she breaks into the guy’s emails, stalks him, uprooting flowers that she planted at his apartment. She actually is INSANE. Hilarious. Andre (Zack Pearlman) is the douchiest drug dealer you could come up with, inspiring a Newman-like hatred from Mulaney and the rest of his friends. And that’s the point; the parallels between Mulaney and Seinfeld are obvious. Each episode starts up with Mulaney’s stand up, and he plays a version of himself alongside larger-than-life sitcom characters who “enliven” every scene with big entrances.

The whole show is trying too hard; John Mulaney and company seem so desperate to please, that each tired situation and joke nearly causes physical pain. Everyone is mugging for the camera as if they’re attention starved extras. It’s like watching an ill-advised sketch that isn’t working…that runs for 22 minutes. This show has Martin Short and Elliott Gould, two all-time greats. It can’t be this dire, can it?

Motif’s “joke” boils down to this: “If you don’t know the problem, you’re the problem bitch.” FOX makes an easy target as the problem bitch for a show with so many of them, but I don’t think anyone is innocent. Everyone involved with the show is the problem, bitch.

27 & 26. A to Z (NBC)/Selfie (ABC)

Both of these are grouped together for many reasons. One is so I don’t have to waste the time writing two separate entries, but mostly it’s because both shows are misguided, mostly repugnant sitcoms, wasting the efforts of truly likable people. It’s also because I watched them on the same day, about a month ago, and have blissfully forgotten most of that experience.

How does a show with Karen Gillan and John Cho elicit so much hatred? Because they happen to be in a show called Selfie. It’s an abhorrent title that has no defense, but we as a society deserve at least some of the blame for enabling a studio to even consider this a smart idea. There’s an inherent hypocrisy that “Selfie” is getting such a bad rap for a name, when almost every single one of us are taking selfies whenever possible. But at least we’re not making a TV show about it, you rightfully counter.

The title isn’t the only problem with Selfie, unfortunately. Its first half is as bad and cringe-worthy as you expect a show called Selfie to be, with Karen Gillan slutting it up and bravely becoming the world’s worst human, consumed with likes and follows, with no notion of how to be an actual person. She is the Black Hole of Suck that embodies all that’s wrong with social media. Enter John Cho, as her life coach and I’m sure her eventual love interest, except the show won’t last long enough to get there. It’s a testament to Gillan and Cho’s talents that they can SOMEHOW make the show watchable in the second half, when Gillan’s Eliza Dooley becomes less like a terrifying caricature and a living manifestation of nails on a chalkboard, and someone who just barely avoids deserving a punch in the mouth from every person she meets. It’s actually a mild miracle that could portend a dramatic turnaround a la Cougar Town, but I doubt it.

Sidenote: Is John Cho on a mission to star in every TV show on air? He had Go On, a recurring role on Sleepy Hollow, this mess, and a cush voice gig on American Dad! I guess he figures he needs about 2-3 a season to have one at any given time.

Since How I Met Your Dad didn’t happen, A to Z is the gimmicky, schmaltzy romantic sitcom that hopes to take its place, even gifted with the absolutely adorable Cristin Milioti, who somehow lived up to being the Mother on HIMYM. It also has Mad Men scene stealer Ben Feldman, the Andrew to Milioti’s Zelda (get it, A to Z?). There probably isn’t a more delightful new coupling on TV. Or so you’d think.

A to Z is a show that stars a woman I’m legitimately mad I’m not old enough, New York enough, or talented enough to have met before she was famous. The pilot features multiple Back to the Future references. I still probably won’t watch another episode.

Andrew (Feldman) and Zelda (Milioti) are perfect for each other because the Narrator (Katey Sagal doing her best Allison Janney impersonation, oddly enough) tells us in an obnoxious opener that actually “reveals” that Andrew’s a man’s man who loves sports with the boyz, while Zelda is a girl’s girl…and Andrew sings Celine Dion (who doesn’t?)…blegh. They, of course, have insanely specific shared interests, ones that can be mined for comedy and for stubborn, insistent proof that they are one another’s romantic destiny. Instead, Andrew just comes off as a creep in proving their meant to be-ness. It’s hard to make the charming Ben Feldman creepy, but A to Z manages just fine. That’s what happens when a guy tracks down concert footage to prove whether or not someone you hardly know was in attendance.

Feldman and Milioti are meant for great things, just not for each other, at least not in A to Z. Like Andrew’s character, it’s trying too hard. If it was a bit worse, and I was a curmudgeon, I’d finish this review with the painful retort: “With an entire alphabet to play with, the only letter it reaches is F.”

That’s a failing grade, y’all.

25. Red Band Society (FOX)

Because Fault of Our Stars was a YA sensation, the clear message to advertisers is this: young people love to watch young people die (I guess this is more or less true considering Hunger Games and the string of dystopian successes). But Red Band Society uses this as a shortcut to feels and tragedy, rather than earning an audience’s emotional investment.

In a hospital that has a rooftop perfect for parties, a wealthy hypochondriac recluse who lives in one of the wings and gives dope to kids (An American Werewolf in London‘s Griffin Dunne, actually giving the show a breath of funky fresh air) and attractive doctors, lives a group of kids of various socioeconomic backgrounds, ages, and diseases. They are the Red Band Society.

Octavia Spencer is a “scary bitch,” who relishes in the barista getting her name right on the coffee cup. While the cup reads scary bitch, this is Nurse Jackson, the hardened woman keeping track of all these sick kids, who also has a heart of gold. But she doesn’t want to be muffin buddies with Nurse Dobler (Rebecca Rittenhouse), whose crime is clear: she’s too nice. You made me a plate of muffins? How dare you try to befriend me, you BITCH?!

The Red Band Society comes with a mawkish monologue from coma patient Charlie (name o’ the week nominee Griffin Gluck), who speaks in “this means that” misdirection with a voice that reminds you of Home Alone-era Macaulay Culkin. There’s “…the story you want people to know and the one you don’t.” “How do you tell someone who needs a heart…that she never had one to begin with?” “Luck isn’t getting what you want, it’s surviving what you don’t want.” [When you get sick, people assume] “life stops…but it’s the opposite: life starts.” We have to forgive the Hallmark/inspirational phrase-of-the-day calendar stuff, because Charlie’s speaking FROM a coma: “This is me, talking to you from a coma. Deal with it.” Okay.

Kara (Zoe Levin) is the early favorite for Worst New Character on TV: she’s a Mean Girl cheerleader who coins phrases like “niplash” and after she collapses during practice, she decides to smoke in the hospital, BLOW CIGARETTE SMOKE INTO CHARLIE’S FACE (Charlie being the coma patient), and uses Charlie’s call button to get attention. She treats the nurses like their room service: she actually orders a kale salad from Nurse Jackson. But dammit, she needs a heart transplant. Maybe I should feel bad, but mostly I felt like they were robbing me of my ability to hate this character, who deserves several volumes of text dedicated to hating her. Kara’s not going to be eligible for a heart any time soon, thanks to her wide and varied drug use seen in her toxicology report. Wah wah.

Red Band Society ladles on the sentimentality and depression in equal measures, but luckily, the show’s heart is in the right place, even if their characters may not have working ones. Eventually, being forced to feel actually works, and dammit if something wasn’t stirring when Leo (Charlie Rowe) brings the gang together, and gives them all red bands, bracelets from his various surgeries that he’s kept as horrific mementos, quoting Shakespeare’s Henry V, labeling them his band of brothers. The relationship between Leo and new roommate Jordi (Nolan Sotillo) is the show’s saving grace, as Leo turns into an unlikely mentor for a friend forced to wade through the same tragedy. On the eve of an operation that will leave Jordi minus a leg, Leo promises him: “they can never cut into your soul.”

While Red Band Society smacks of somehow translating cancer kids and their foibles into marketing money, the show still feels like it has one. A soul, that is.

24. Madam Secretary (CBS)

Is “Not Politics As Usual” the most awkward slogan ever? Or is it the title I wish this show to have? Probably both, even if this is very much…politics as usual.

The Oval Office has always needed a middle-aged mother of three. After the Secretary of State’s plane went down, Keith Carradine (joining the annals of TV Presidency) tabs Elizabeth McCord (Tea Leoni) for the job. They apparently used to work in The Company together (we’re so cool we don’t have to call it the CIA). Prepare to hear The Company more times than you care to.

She’s the “least political person” the President knows, the only one he can trust to make real change. After all: “You don’t just think outside the box, you don’t know there is a box.” How do you say no to that pitch?

Ugh. Someone at CBS said yes to this pitch, and while it has many laughable and groan-worthy moments, it’s also very…competent. Elizabeth McCord may think outside the box, but this show is constructed entirely out of boxes. There’s a conspiracy, Elizabeth relies on her skills as a Mother in matters of National Security and diplomatic peacekeeping meetings with equal aplomb, and she even has to weather a new personal stylist. Oh, politics. You’re the worst.

But this show somehow isn’t. It’s so very standard, and predictable, but it’s not bad. It’s comfort food that tries to have edge: Elizabeth has shady contacts! Tim Daly is always shady! There’s a shady death! Politics are so shady, but the show’s tactics are so familiar, that its edges only further embolden the box’s architecture.

Zeljko Ivanek has played so many government aides that it’d be weird for him NOT to be in this show. How many times do you have to play a “combative chief of staff” before he gets grandfathered into the real Oval Office?

Hilariously, Quellek of Galaxy Quest, is ALSO in this show, as the director of the CIA. Good for Patrick Breen. He doesn’t even die!

At some point in this pilot episode, a character (probably a politician), admits, “I don’t think now is the time for substance.” He/she could be talking about this show, this fall season, or network TV as a whole. It’s certainly been CBS’ politics as usual mantra and MO for years (with a few exceptions), and it’s worked for so long, because these are the kind of shows that become hits and stay on for years and years. Why do so many people settle for mediocre, “safe” TV? Because so many people are morons. But with more and more outlets for content, and so many of them outstripping the major networks, hopefully the networks will respond with something bolder than a woman in the oval office.

23. Stalker (CBS)

Kevin Williamson has forever cemented his place in my heart with Dawson’s Creek, but Stalker continues a disturbing trend of horror-shock entertainment, akin to The Following.

We open with a hooded stalker with creepy slits in his mask burning a woman alive in her car. This case is forwarded to LA’s Threat Assessment Unit, where Beth Davis (Maggie Q) and her team excel in tackling stalker cases. How To Make It In America‘s Victor Rasuk and True Blood‘s Mariana Klaveno are Detectives with the thankless duty of holding case files and introducing them, while murmuring about how capable Beth is to the new guy Jack Larsen (Dylan McDermott), who’s hired to make sure the other detectives never have to leave the office. Jack was transferred from NY to LA because he slept with his boss’ wife, he has a big personality, and basically for being everything you personify in a Dylan McDermott character. Meaning: you hate him, just like Beth does when she first meets the lout; it’s slightly clever of Stalker to play with McDermott’s inherent hate-ability even if I question their methods. He’s a smart ass who makes inappropriate jokes (he transferred to LA to meet Scarlett Johansson, presumably a stalking victim) and admits to checking out Beth’s breasts; what’s not to love? Oh, he’s also tailing a blonde woman (Angel‘s Elisabeth Rohm) with a family, potentially a devious stalker himself.

Stalker is slick (because misogyny is cool, yo), mostly well made, but do you really want to spend an hour watching men and women getting attacked? That’s just not the type of escapist entertainment I’m drawn to, and this show doesn’t posit itself as anything more than that.

During a convenient lecture, Beth Davis tells us that over 6 million people get stalked each year; that’s 1 in 6 women and 1 in 19 men. It’s a serious problem, one exacerbated by social media and the unparalleled access people are relenting online. You want Stalker to get into the mindsets of stalkers, to attempt to take some sort of stance, but much like The Following, it’s mostly reveling in the violence, while Stalker‘s crippled with a procedural bent on a case of the week. It doesn’t glorify stalkers like The Following seemingly did for serial killers and cults in a disturbing way, but Stalker is already walking a fine line.

Stalkers are a sticky topic: most people don’t notify the police, or when they do, they can’t prove it. This is the crux of the problem; law enforcement can’t help most of the time, a realization that has spurred Beth to take matters into her own hands, much like a vigilante. This revenge fantasy could turn the show on its head, and highlighting the problems with catching real-life stalkers almost seems important. But it certainly feels like Stalker is going to be a spotlight for creepy, over-the-top horror movie level villains. That’s the mistake Kevin Williamson and company make; they assume the greater the evil, the freakier it is. I daresay focusing on the stalkers we’d find in real life are even scarier.

Day 1 of San Diego is about to begin. I’ll be liveblogging for as long as sketchy WIFI and fickle battery life persists. Lucky you.

First up is the first and last 24 panel. I haven’t watched the show since maybe season 3, and I’ve probably seen less than a full day in Jack Bauer’s life in total. That makes me the perfect person to regale you with dirty deets on the last season for the FOX show that apparently people other than my Aunt and Uncle still care about. There will be SPOILERS, but you should know that, fateful reader(s).

Prediction: A 24 movie will be pontificated about ad nauseum. I’d say there’s a 64% chance for an announcement during the panel.

Lessons learned from my neighbor who’s been on the show from the start (the poor lass): Apparently Live Another Day is already over, and apparently it was “pretty good,” and like Bourne Identity. A little late to the game on the Bourne copycats. I’m learning so much.

Kiefer Sutherland to the stage. Gets a rousing round of applause. Also doesn’t kill anyone, which is impressive considering the intro video.

Apparently Kiefer worked with Jon Cassar for 9 seasons of 24, and has never seen Jon more nervous for this panel, according to Mr. Sutherland.

Shooting in London was difficult; the rules are different. Needed 6 weeks to have a gun on set. Getting weapons is a lot harder in the UK. This led to more creative ways to “do stuff”/kill people. Also very odd to shoot with a different group of people, though they were talented. London was a “fantastic experience.” Texture and historical significance was “unique and special.”

Cops can’t stop people from walking anywhere, so hundreds of people would crowd the set. Up to three thousand people watching during metro in/out scenes, and funny enough, listened to directions from the crew, unlike Americans.

During a very emotional scene between Jack and Chloe, they were forced to do it in front of 2,000 people in a park. Mary Lynne (Chloe) was terrified, and didn’t think she could do it. But she knocked it out of the park and cried, because of all the eyes.

Sutherland: “This character has been the greatest gift of my career.”

“We’ll never say we made a perfect season…” but very proud of what we did over 8 seasons, and were terrified to damage that by opening it up again. Kiefer was a complete mess about it, panicked. Was worried about not serving the character and franchise justice.

Jon: different Jack Bauer this season, “leaner, meaner.” Now shooting people two times more after they’re dead.

Went back and watched the very first season and very first episode. There was so much hope. With everything that he’s lost, he’s lost patience. “Nothing in his immediate future that he’s fighting for.”

Justified the tattoos on his arms, because he was tired of covering them up. Created bullshit excuse for it.

The end of the show “was whatever we could make it.” Had a lot of freedom to end the finale. “Copped out” because it’s hard to let it go, and hard to end it. “It was difficult.” This all mattered to them, and it’s clear that Kiefer means it. Thanks audience for their gracious and kind response to the end.

Halo around Chloe; can’t kill her. They’d rather kill off Jack than Chloe, Kiefer suggests.

Met Kim Raver five minutes before they had to make out, push her against the wall and undo her blouse in their first scene together. He also met her husband right before it. Yay acting!

Working with Bill Devane: “he’s crazy.” He apparently just wants to be playing polo. RE: London: “I can’t understand why they don’t feed you better.” He was fantastic/miserable traveler, complained about lack of channels, couldn’t sleep, etc.

Apparently Devane’s wardrobe mannerisms is all him. Cassar commands us to look out for that when we get the Blu-Ray. He either assumes we’re all getting it (wrong), or they’re giving them away (too good).

RE: preparation. It apparently when it’s going well, Kiefer gets nervous and doesn’t read the scripts until the day before.

Kiefer admits that there were good TV shows before 24, name-dropping ER and The Sopranos. Was worried about playing a character for a long period of time; but loves it, because it’s the most rewarding acting opportunities you can imagine, because of the evolution and growth for his character.

Apparently throwing the “Red Queen” (wrong; Michelle Fairley/Catelyn Stark) from Game of Thrones was not the original idea. It was written as him coming through the window and killing her, the episode was too long. Kiefer wanted to have a scene with her, it was his ego. She’s the “strongest, shortest” person I ever met, “unbelievably strong.” By the time I actually chucked her out the window, “I was quite happy.”

Apparently best stunt team they worked with.

Chopping Benjamin Bratt’s hand off wasn’t in the script either. Took the opportunity given to him, which was often the case on 24. A lot of it is born that day, and comes organically, and had freedom to do it.

How much of Kiefer is in Jack and vice versa? “Oh, very different…just take a look at my record.” Jokingly says he’s the guy he wanted to grow up to be. Sutherland has a strong sense of right and wrong, whether he follows it or not, and shares that with Jack, who lives by it, a creed he respects about the character more than anything.

During first season, Kiefer went to wrong location and ran out of gas to the second location (he’s never late and never missed a day of work except for this day). Got out, wearing a suit from Jay Leno the night before, running to get gas. Traffic not moving, guy yelled “Jack Bauer!” They thought he was shooting a scene. On the way back, he ran back to his car with a gas can, and the same guy yelled, “Jack Bauer’s a loser!”

Another story: Old lady with groceries on Olympic in LA. Kiefer sees her, she gets accosted by two men, and he gets out of his car and starts hitting the boys. Then he realizes they’re shooting a student film. The old lady was an 18 year old kid from USC. Awesome.

Who would you dress up as Comic-Con? “Stormtrooper,” no way of knowing who he was, and body defined.

At family dinners, does Kiefer and Donald argue about what characters are more badass? Kiefer loved the question, but actually doesn’t talk to his Dad about work. Recently did a movie with Donald, directed by Cassar (a western). Kiefer admits that “he could kick his ass.”

RE: Metal Gear Solid 5 and similarities/differences between working on a video game and TV/movie: wildly different process, except  creating a character is the same. Believes films/video games will come together, and the technology will progress to that point.

Saw Jack as a reluctant action hero at first, but losing his wife, and his family as the show progresses, evolved the character to where he’s got nothing, and he’s just angry. “Evolution of the character is based on loss.”

Don’t consider political ramifications outside of the context of our show. “It’s a show. We’re not advocating torture…anything.” Made 24 six months before 911. Made him someone who fought terrorists, because that’s a job where he could work 24 hours on end. Writers would imagine worst scenario, and then the scenario would come true. Stopped predicting and took from the newspaper; like drone warfare in season 9. Political backdrop is important to storytelling.

What happened to the President after the finale? “I suspect he’s mourning the loss of his daughter and in our heads, resigned, given into his illness, etc. etc.” This question was asked by the Verge, to which Kiefer admitted to being in Comic-Con.

Favorite weapon to use? Kiefer answered immediately: 6th hour, a 3 .37. I know nothing about guns, so that’s probably not even typed out correctly. One of the few fake guns that wouldn’t misfire. Yvonne Strohovski caught on while filming season 9.

What’s more important: creating a story that’s suspenseful or one that you want to watch it over and over? Kiefer, personally believes in the former, though he’s not a writer and not involved in that process.

Kiefer gets asked to do a Jack Bauer “Dammit,” and he kills it. Twice.

Who would you want to be your costar if you did another 24? Rave about the actors they got this last season. Hard to say because so many great actors, but mentions Gene Hackman as his dream fantasy to work with.

Movie question finally brought up. They’re still talking about the movie, it’s out there. Jon Cassar can’t say anything about directing it, but he’d love to, and Kiefer would love to do it. It’ll happen.

Every month there’s a new YA sensation turned movie franchise, and most end up a bust, like The Mortal Instruments or Divergent (though those will likely spawn sequels anyway). Others, like The Hunger Games, prove worthy of all the attention and praise. FOX’s The Maze Runner aims to join Katniss in the upper echelon, and solely because it stars Teen Wolf‘s Dylan O’Brien, I’m optimistic.

The panel kicks off with the moderator asking the audience: “Any grievers in the building?” Cue squealing.

The Maze Runner comes from a trilogy of books by James Dashner, about a group of teenagers dropped in a remote location, arriving via elevator, with their memories wiped clean, surrounded by a massive maze. Mysteriousness abound.

Then we get the same trailer that you’ve all likely seen, which is an excuse for everyone in the audience to yell about Stiles… right before they’re about to see him.

The guests for the panel include author James Dashner, director Wes Ball, star Will Poulter (who just won an MTV Movie Award for We’re The Millers) and the aforementioned and fan-favorite Dylan O’Brien, who might’ve skipped from being the next big thing to just being a big thing.

How does it feel to have your book being made into a movie?

Dashner: It’s surreal, exciting, and “unbelievable how much they’ve matched the vision for my book.”

Were Dylan and Will fans of the book before getting the part?

O’Brien didn’t know the book until he was brought in to audition, then he found it, researched it and loved it. It “would’ve been my favorite book as a kid, straight up.” Poulter’s experience was much the same, and relished discovering its amazing group of fans.

Was their pressure to do it right?

Ball: Yes, but it’s the best kind of pressure, to please the fans and capture the spirit of book and make the best movie out of it.

Then, it became time to see an all new scene, one that wasn’t in the book, a sequence where the maze changes. The scene involves Thomas (Dylan O’Brien’s character) and Minho (Ki Hong Lee), getting caught in the maze when it’s changing. It’s freaking intense and cool, and certainly lives up to the title of the film (there’s a lot of running). It looks much better than most YA films.

“You guys must be in great shape. A lot of running.” As I observed, it is called Maze Runner, after all.

Poulter is proud to be a part of such a great young cast, with emotional relationships as the core, a rarity in films like this. Memory loss, the notion that these characters might have families somewhere, that they must’ve come from somewhere, all these questions you’d naturally wrestle with are all in the movie. According to Poulter, there’s a great exploration of character, which is unique to the genre.

Where did the idea for this concept and world come from?
Dashner was heavily influenced by Lord of the Flies, Ender’s Game, and the concept of a teenage boy being sent somewhere strange. He also wrote the book while LOST was on, which is one of his favorite shows. To top it off, mazes have always creeped him out, ever since The Shining. Put all those elements together, and you have The Maze Runner.

How do you make us care about characters with the maze as such a distraction? Put characters first. The maze is one of the monsters in the movie.

What are the similarities and differences between Stiles and Thomas?
Well, they are both “characters I play.” Ball remarks that “Thomas is better looking than Stiles,” to which Dylan asks hypothetically: “Who would you do?” Then he admitted: “I was gonna not say that, and I did anyways.” In all seriousness, “Thomas is more stoic, calmer, more introverted, quieter…More like me.” Stiles is O’Brien’s goofy side, which apparently is his off-camera side.

What were the differences between shooting Teen Wolf and working on TV than on a movie?
According to Dylan, it was actually very similar to his experience on Teen Wolf. It shoots fast, and doesn’t have the luxury of time and a lot of money, and The Maze Runner was very much the same way. It’s a smaller budgeted movie, but had to make it big. “It looks like a 100 million dollar movie, and it’s not.”

What’s it like working with Kaya Scodelario?
Kaya plays Teresa, the only girl in a sea of men. O’Brien: “You would love Kaya. She’s amazing.” Being the only girl in the movie could be intimidating, but she was apparently the perfect girl to have. According to Poulter, when she first arrived on set, the guys were all playing a dumb game that involved throwing sports equipment at each other, and she comes in, catches a ball and throws it straight back, with a cigarette in her mouth. It doesn’t get cooler than that, and both O’Brien and Poulter admit how badass she is.

Did the movie fulfill Dashner’s imagination for how it would be adapted?
Dashner: “It’s hard to talk about it…” “when they’re sitting right next to me,” Ball finishes for him. In reality, it’s hard for Dashner to reveal his thoughts without sounding insincere or cheesy, because he loves it. He’s “utterly thrilled with each casting decision…matched my vision perfectly.” He loved being on set, feeling the family vibe, and “cannot believe what good actors they were.” He thinks these actors are special, and that people will look back at this film and see it as where their careers took off. O’Brien and Poulter are cool with that assessment.

RE: Dylan O’Brien: How was it like going from comedy and romantic roles like The Internship and The First Timeto an action flick The Maze Runner?
O’Brien: It’s “great to be able to try different things.” It was far more “physically demanding…a lot more tiring.” He didn’t have to run during the audition, and O’Brien has often wondered…what if he had a weird run? At this point, most of the panel each do a version of a ridiculous run, that totally would’ve ruined the movie. Or made it a camp classic. It’s a great point though, something I wouldn’t have thought of. Thankfully it was not an issue.

In book, Teresa and Thomas communicate telepathically, do they in film?
Ball: “Sadly no.” It’s a “difficult thing to portray in film.” Apparently that connection is kind of there, if you look for it. Dashner fully endorses any changes in the movie, noting that telepathy normally looks cheesy in the movies.

It’s time to move on, but not before a selfie with the audience. As the talented quartet wander off, moderator Ralph Garman remarks: “It’s a shame that Dylan kid isn’t good looking…he could have a career.” Har har har!

The Maze Runner hits theaters September 19, 2014. Buy the book now to be ready.

The Maze Runner is the next big YA adaptation to hit theaters. On September 14th, when Wesley Ball’s film comes to the big screen, we’ll know if it’s the next Hunger Games, or the next Mortal Instruments, The Host or Beautiful Creatures.

FOX clearly has high hopes for the potential franchise, as it became one of its showcase films during WonderCon this weekend. Before their panel (coverage here), I got to be a part of a press conference with Maze Runner author James Dashner, director Wes Ball and stars Dylan O’Brien (Teen Wolf) and Will Poulter (We’re The Millers). What follows is an overview of the discussion between this young group of people whose lives are about to change, should this puppy go supernova/Twilight.

James Dashner, when he wrote the books, tried to make something outside of the crazed Young Adult thing.

Ball believes the YA dystopian craze has come about because he thinks kids like to be treated as an adults. But he compares The Maze Runner more to Lord of the Flies, and not post-apocalyptic. The second film, should there be one, is more like that.

Dylan O’Brien points to another reason for the post-apocalyptic YA phenomenon. “Jennifer Lawrence.” Laughs and general agreement ensued. “How could that not create a franchise?”

Dylan was asked how challenging the role of Thomas was, as opposed to his comedic role of Stiles on Teen Wolf. He admits to the difficulty, and humbly hopes he did okay. Wes Ball immediately tells us that he rose to the challenge.

O’Brien didn’t go into the film thinking he was the next Katniss or this was the next Hunger Games. That’s a lot of expectation or weight, and plus, he’s a boy. He loves the story and fell in love with James’ book. The process and what they went through was insane, considering the budget and time, or lack thereof. But they made it happen, and he’s clearly proud of their work. It’s funny to O’Brien that now he’s getting asked, “How does it feel like to be in such a big movie?” And his response is normally, “Cool, we made it look like we were in a big movie.” It’s a testament to Ball’s direction, the FX and the buzz surrounding the project.

On the subject of a Thomas vs. Katniss film: “She would kick my ass.” Everyone on the panel agreed, and so did I. Peeta vs. Thomas on the other hand…

Will Poulter recently won an MTV Movie Award for We’re The Millers. It’s news to me that people watched and enjoyed that movie. But like Dylan O’Brien, he’s taking on a much different character here, as Gally, his character, has a hard edge. Adorably, even with all the changes in his life recently, Poulter still lives in West London “with my mum.” But he’s ready to go on this journey with James and company.

Was there pressure to adapt the book into a film? Yes, of course, Ball says, but it’s “good pressure.” He was a fan of the book, and took it from that point of view. He sought to give a sense of truth to the world itself. “The only pressure was to execute the perfect movie I had in my head on the screen. We had a lot of challenges, but it was a fantastic experience…Everybody was in it 100% to make a cool movie together…[It was a ] unique bonding experience…[and that] shows up in movie.”

What was it like bringing grievers to life? Dashner believes that “their vision perfectly matched mine,” and that they took his book and made them even better. They believe they’ve made a “unique movie monster that stands out from all the rest” because its “biomechanical, nasty, scary, metallic, all these things,” and came up with a design with some of the artists that would be really fun to animate. The consensus for the Grievers? “Freaking awesome.” Apparently the monsters were brought to life by the guy who created the Life of Pi tiger.

Dashner learned to love reading when he was a young adult, and Stephen King was his YA section. When he writes, he “writes naturally what he would like at that age,” but doesn’t think about his audience. That’s why he believes the books have crossed over to so many audiences. He seeks to “write the coolest thing I can write.” Ball and his team wanted to “make a movie for the kid in everybody, not [a movie] for kids.”

The soundtrack for the film was discussed, and James Dashner was concerned (since he often writes to soundtracks) when they were making it that they’d want a typical pop soundtrack. And luckily, that’s not at all what Wes Ball had in mind (“No, we’re going full epic, orchestral score” ). He apparently ONLY listens to soundtracks, ever since he was 16, something that Dylan and company can attest to from their drive down to Anaheim for the Con. The film is equal parts John Williams, Hans Zimmer, and an eclectic mix of old school/classic film sound, as the music becomes a character and supports the movie. Ball’s very excited for soundtrack buffs to watch the movie. According to Dashner, “it’s awesome” and blew him away.

Favorite movie soundtracks were discussed, and the greats were mentioned, like Jurassic Park, Aliens, the last Superman. Will mentions the Bourne trilogy. And of course, The Maze Runner.

Another reason to check out the movie on September 19th, 2014. Catch up on the books now.

Most of us have heard of DUNE, if not read Frank Herbert’s philosophical masterpiece. Whether we’ve seen David Lynch’s nutty film, we’re at least aware that Sting and Patrick Stewart both starred in the disaster, and that spice (a hallucinogenic drug) plays an enormous role in the plot.

You might not know that 8 years before David Lynch’s DUNE came out, in the mid-1970’s, that an entirely different version was OH SO CLOSE to being made, from the Chilean psychedelic cult director Alejandro Jodorowsky, who practically created the midnight movie with EL TOPO and HOLY MOUNTAIN. This version was set to star Salvador Dali as the Emperor of the Galaxy. Orson Welles as the uber-fat, uber-villainous Baron Harkonnen. David Carradine as one of the leads. Mick Jagger had even signed on, and Pink Floyd was going to do the music for the world of Arrakis. The world and visuals came from H.R. Giger, Chris Foss and Dan O’Bannon. These “spiritual warriors,” as Jodorowsky calls them, would help shape the very future of science fiction with ALIEN. Despite never being made, Jodorowsky’s DUNE was everything.

Now, director Frank Pavich has crafted a masterful documentary (my gushing review can be found here), appropriately entitled JODOROWSKY’S DUNE, chronicling the wacky story of this almost-classic that never was, to enlighten the masses of one of the most fascinating “lost” films ever almost made. The movie comes out next Friday March 21st, to LA and New York before expanding across the country.

I recently had the chance to talk to Frank Pavich about his documentary and how Jodorowsky’s DUNE was a touchstone of science fiction, despite it never happening. In the following interview, we talk STAR WARS, BLADE RUNNER and play a game of what-if’s within the Hollywood landscape, discuss LSD, Hawaiian vacations, Mick Jagger, David Lynch, and everything in between.  Read on.

GREENE: How’s everything going with the film so far? What’s the next step with it?

PAVICH: So far, so good. We’re going to be in theatres March 21^st, so it’s really just trying to raise awareness of what’s coming out.

GREENE: It deserves a large audience, especially for the sci-fans out there, and if you can connect to that Comic-Con audience…

PAVICH: Exactly.

GREENE: Are you getting a limited release or a wide release?

PAVICH: It slowly grows. Starts limited, starts in New York and LA on the 21^st and then every week from there it spreads out through different cities. It basically goes as far as Honolulu, oddly enough. It really kind of hits the whole country.

GREENE: Well perfect. Hopefully there are a lot of DUNE fans in Hawaii.

PAVICH: I hope so, I hope so. That’d be good, right? I think I need to go to Hawaii to promote the film. Don’t you think that’d be necessary?

GREENE: I think so too, they need to comp you a trip there.

PAVICH: If you wouldn’t mind e-mailing or calling Sony and telling them that you think that, I’d really appreciate that. I could go for a nice tan. [Ed. Note: Sony hasn’t been answering my calls.]

GREENE: If I could come with, maybe I’ll do it.

PAVICH: I don’t see why not. If they’re going to buy one ticket, might as well buy a second one.

GREENE: The airlines might have a deal.

PAVICH: Yeah!

GREENE: How much did you know about Frank Herbert’s DUNE and Alejandro Jodorowsky’s DUNE film before picking this as your next project?

PAVICH: I came to the story from the Jodorowsky side. I came in as a big fan of his and knowing his films. So that was my introduction to this. When I first heard about this story, and I was like, “Oh, Alejandro Jodorowsky had a lost movie?” And not only that, but a lost movie that he basically completely realized; it wasn’t just a screenplay draft. He had a whole team working, and they were working for two years, and it was fully cast, and they had all these people attached. It was ready to go, every scene was drawn out on paper, the entire film from the first scene to the last scene. That’s what kind of first drew me to it, along with this amazing array of characters that he had involved. So really I don’t come from the DUNE side of things, I kind of approached it like he did, to a certain extent. I actually didn’t read the novel until I was on the plane, flying from New York to Paris to do our first interview with him. I feel like part of me didn’t want to jinx it. I wanted to follow his path. “I will make DUNE without having read it.” So I will make the DUNE documentary without having read it at that stage of the game. So my knowledge of DUNE all came as we were making the film, as we were doing our interviews. Which is kind of a great way to just immerse yourself into it.

GREENE: I think you did it right, I love it. That was one of my favorite parts in the film, when Jodorowsky wanted it to be his next project, yet he didn’t really know why, and hadn’t read the book.

PAVICH: Yeah, exactly. Something told him to make it that. That was it.

GREENE: So did you make it past the first 100 pages and beyond? It almost seemed like that was as far as Jodorowsky got.

PAVICH: Oh no, he’s read the whole thing. If you look at his screenplay, if you look at his book, it’s DUNE. There are certainly Jodorowsky flourishes in it, but it is almost an exact adaptation of the book. He’s just saying that it’s such a dense book, that in the first 100 pages, you don’t need any introductions to it, it’s complete. He considers it to be not just a pulpy, science fiction book, but he considers it to be great literature. He equates it to Proust and the classics. He knows it very well, for sure.

GREENE: Did you get a peek at Jodorowsky’s bible?

PAVICH: Of course. We shot it at his house and we animated directly from it. I know it quite well.

GREENE: I would’ve wanted to just take that thing. It’s like a rarified piece of treasure, it was awesome.

PAVICH: Oh yeah. There are only 2 left that are for sure in existence. He has one, and [Producer] Michel Seydoux has one. They think they made 20 when they came to the studios. Where those other 18 or so copies are is quite a mystery. It’d be great that when this movie comes out, people might come out of the woodwork. “I found this in my Uncle’s attic!” or “I found it in a box in the basement” or “It’s been on this shelf collecting dust for the past 40 years.” I figure those books must be somewhere. I’d be shocked if anyone would take a book of that size and throw it in the garbage. It’d be weird. Even if they don’t make the film, it’s like, “Wow, this is really cool to have.” If someone pitched it to me, I would keep it. It’s such an awesome thing to put on your shelf. It’s amazing.

GREENE: I think you have your sequel idea. The search for the missing bibles!

PAVICH: [laughs] The Hunt For The 18!

GREENE: I think I know the answer to this, but I’m going to ask anyways. Jodorowsky (above) is a goldmine of anecdotes and one-liners during the interviews. Is he any different off-camera or is he as wacky and wonderful as he seems?

PAVICH: Oh, it’s him. He’s completely genuine. He’s a performer, he’s a storyteller, but he’s not false. He gives you everything. There’s a video online [here], that I don’t know if you’ve seen, he entered his new film [LA DANZA DE REALIDAD] into a festival, in Montreal, and he could not make it to introduce the film, so he recorded a video that was played in the theatre before his film showed. It’s him completely nude sitting in a chair, talking to the camera, and explaining his film. He’s basically saying that in his new film, he exposed himself completely, spiritually, and mentally, for the audience. So now in his introduction, he’s completed it, and he is exposing himself physically, as well. He goes all out. No matter what he does, he goes all out. He’s incredible.

GREENE: I love that. It’s so admirable. It’s scary to Hollywood, unfortunately. Or it was. Though I think it still would be.

PAVICH: I think so. Although it’s weird. If you think about Hollywood…Hollywood was scared of Jodorowsky, because they were scared of losing money. That’s really all they care about. Is the money. They want a lot. They were scared to lose money. And he was ahead of his time. He came up with this idea of making this giant megabucks space opera before anybody, before STAR WARS and all that stuff. If you look at the timeline, here comes this really out there avant-garde director with this giant budgeted space opera and pitch it to the studios. They have no idea what to make of it. They have no idea. [As the studios] “The films you’ve made, EL TOPO and HOLY MOUNTAIN, don’t lend themselves to material like this,” and they don’t get the material, so they say no. Then a year or two later, STAR WARS is released, which is a film that 20^th Century FOX was not high on anyway. They thought it was dumb, they thought it wasn’t going to make any money. They were barely support of it. Little did they know, little did anyone know, what a huge blockbuster that would be, basically starting the blockbuster movement more or less. Then suddenly every studio wanted to make science fiction. There were sequels, they were bringing back STAR TREK onto the big screen, they were doing everything they could, anything in space, green lighting, “Go! Go! Go! Make money!” Then a couple years later, they decide to go back to the DUNE project, and who do they get but essentially a director very similar and very much in the vein of Jodorowsky himself. They didn’t get Spielberg to direct it, they didn’t get the Michael Bay of that time, whomever that might be, they got somebody very similar to Jodorowsky [one David Lynch]. In ’76, they thought it was stupid and “Oh, how could someone who made EL TOPO and HOLY MOUNTAIN make something like this?” But then in ’84, they get the guy who made ELEPHANT MAN and ERASERHEAD, to direct the biggest movie of its time. It cost $60 million. It was the biggest budgeted film yet. So suddenly they thought, oh we’re going to make money with this, they started preparing Paul Atreides action figures, and TOPPS trading cards, and coloring books, for children? This is not a kid’s movie. This is not a story for children, by any stretch. I don’t know who in the studio had read the script, had read the book, had been on set, had seen David Lynch’s films, but this is not aimed at kids. It’s a really weird thing that they tried to do. I don’t know who was not paying attention or what was going on over there. But it’s strange, because the studios came around and oh yes, we’ll do it now. It’s really bizarre. Really bizarre.

GREENE: The whole thing is bizarre. There’s even an element to it all that makes you angry. The movie is engrossing, entertaining, but it also drove me to fury. I kept flashing back to the scene in CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON, when the archaeologists find a fossilized Creature claw and handle it like it’s any other rock you might find on the beach. You just shiver. The whole thing makes you feel a little dirty.

PAVICH: That’s interesting. That’s really interesting. Yeah, wow.

GREENE: Because of Hollywood’s treatment of Jodorowsky’s project. You mentioned you hoped Hollywood execs wouldn’t have thrown the bibles in the trash, but they kind of threw away this beautiful project away. Was this rage or frustration part of why you took on the film or was it a conscience effort in making it?

PAVICH: Before we started working, I was just more fascinated by it. How did such a thing happen? How did it get so far along? And it’s just so incredible. But the anger or frustration or whatever it is quickly dissipates, because when you spend time with Jodorowsky, you start to see how he feels about it. He feels that it worked out wonderfully. He has no regrets. He says he doesn’t feel that it’s a failure. He says it’s a great success. He did his version of DUNE, and here it is in the book and everything is completely realized, ready to go, and it’s wonderful. He wanted to change the world with his film as he said, he wanted to change history, and he basically did. His spiritual warriors went out into the world and took those ideas with them, and other ideas of his just somehow ended up in other films. He feels vindicated. He sees exactly what happened. Yes, I was right. My spiritual warriors, my team, were the best people. Their careers were made better. [As Jodorowsky] “My career went wonderfully, and I used my ideas, and put them in books, and put them in other films.” He has zero animosity toward any of it. Once you spend time with him, and you get that sense, you kind of agree with him. Why does it have to be negative? You don’t have spend your years crouched over, you can open yourself up to everything. As he said, “Yes we did not make DUNE. Yes, we did not make DUNE.” It’s beautiful. He has a beautiful outlook on everything.

GREENE: It’s inspirational. What others would qualify as a failure he doesn’t, and his spiritual warriors, like H.R. Giger, Chris Foss, Dan O’Bannon, they blew up.

PAVICH: Yeah, those people had never done movies before. That’s what so interesting. He wasn’t picking people based on movies; he was picking people based on their pure art. Giger had never done movies. Chris Foss had never done movies. Moebius had never done movies. They all went off to go make movies, and work in films, but he saw something special and unique in them. And he sought them out. They weren’t looking to get into the movie business, but he just saw their art, and was like “Oh, I want to work with this person.” They have incredible vision and we get to be together in this endeavor.

GREENE: It’s rare, because most directors that are making passion projects, they’re almost the opposite of Jodorowsky. They want what they want, and that’s that. Whereas Jodorowsky wants them to just play, go with what it is in their hearts and it’ll all work out, essentially.

PAVICH: He’s not trying to crush anybody, he’s trying to inspire them. To do great art. Chris Foss says that his only regret working on DUNE was that he didn’t realize what he had. He didn’t realize that working on a movie could be that free and that beautiful and that wonderful. Because the movies he did afterwards, he said were not like that. Working on ALIEN was very difficult. Working with Steven Spielberg on AI he found very difficult. He didn’t have that freedom that Jodorowsky provided.

GREENE: I know that it’s not really the point, and that you and he think he succeeded in his goal, and you’ve convinced me. But Jodorowsky actually says at the end of the film that he hopes someone takes his vision and makes his DUNE. I practically wanted to start a Kickstarter before I left the movie theatre.

PAVICH: [laughs]

GREENE: Do you think his vision of DUNE will ever come to life?

PAVICH: I don’t know if anybody will be able to make an animated version. I don’t know if a book of art would ever be able to be published. Who knows, that also comes down to the Frank Herbert estate, I would assume, because the underlying story is very obviously Frank Herbert’s. So, you’d have to get their permission and option it again, if they even wanted something like that. Time will tell, I guess we’ll see what happens with this documentary. If enough people get inspired, that could change the course of events.

GREENE: Speaking of changing the course of events, playing the “what-if” game is always fun with these projects. If Jodorowsky’s Dune had been made exactly how he wanted it, what do you think the impact of the film would’ve been? Would it have been STAR WARS before STAR WARS?

PAVICH: It’s interesting. If you look at the concept of a multiverse, there’s all the different parallel timelines you can look at. We know what happens when Jodorowsky got as far as he got and the film is not complete, and not made into an actual feature film. We know how this universe looks, and this timeline looks. But let’s say that he had successfully completed the film, and it was a success. Let’s say it’s the biggest success in the world and everybody was lining up around the block to see it and it was incredible. I wonder where movies would be now, because that would tell the executives, the financiers, the studios, that these kinds of bizarre, avant-garde Jodorowsky-ian, David Lynch-ian films are worthwhile. And maybe we would see more pure artistic visions, as opposed to moneymaking schemes, reboots, franchises, the kinds of stuff we get now. Maybe we would see more independent voices being allowed to really speak their minds. On the flip side, let’s say Jodorowsky’s vision of DUNE had been completed, and it was a disaster. Let’s say it was the biggest flop in the history of mankind. Only seven tickets were sold and it collapsed an entire studio. And it was the worst thing ever, nobody believed in it. Then where would we be? Because already at that point, George Lucas was working on STAR WARS, and he was at 20^th Century Fox, and 20^th Century Fox did not believe in STAR WARS. They thought it was a silly idea, “Who would want to see a space movie? This is ridiculous.” And of course we know what happened, STAR WARS came out and it was this mega-blockbuster and perhaps started this whole science fiction renaissance almost. Everybody was making science fiction movies. How many billions of dollars have the STAR WARS movies made? But if Jodorowsky’s DUNE had been a flop and seeing as FOX hadn’t believed in STAR WARS, they probably would’ve used that as their first excuse to pull the plug on STAR WARS. There wouldn’t be STAR WARS, there wouldn’t be the film landscape that we’re in now, for better or for worse. If that was the case, what would the big tentpole movies be every summer? They wouldn’t be STAR WARS type movies, probably wouldn’t be the AVENGERS or superhero films, it might be something completely different. Maybe it’d be Merchant Ivory films. Maybe everybody would be lining up to see period romances. Who knows? We’d be living in a different landscape, so it’s really interesting to imagine those.

GREENE: Oh yeah. You could just go for hours debating the possibilities or charting it like it’s TRUE DETECTIVE or something.

PAVICH: Yeah, exactly. And looking at the movies that DUNE is directly responsible for, obviously it brought the people together who made ALIEN. Which, in itself, transforms film history. If you look at the ALIEN sequels, that’s where James Cameron got his start. That’s where David Fincher got his start. All these voices got their starts in those films. If you look at Ridley Scott’s BLADE RUNNER, that changed science fiction history in another way. BLADE RUNNER never would’ve happened without Jodorowsky’s DUNE. Because Dan O’Bannon and Moebius met on DUNE and together they wrote a comic book called THE LONG TOMORROW. THE LONG TOMORROW is exactly the world of BLADE RUNNER. If you look at the designs in the book, it’s exactly what Sydney [Syd Mead, “visual futurist”] and Ridley Scott put up on the screens for BLADE RUNNER. There are so many things where the lines of history go back to this project. It’s astounding.

GREENE: Clearly, Jodorowsky was this seed of sci-fi, and it was going to spring forth, whether he made the movie or not.

PAVICH: Right.

GREENE: It’s great that this documentary exists because of that. I was with you, I hadn’t read Frank Herbert’s DUNE when I walked into the documentary. While I was well aware of DUNE, and had seen Lynch’s version, I had no idea about this lost film, and I think many people are in the same boat. That’s what makes this film and all its “what-if” scenarios and bringing to light all of its influences, so necessary. Especially for sci-fi fans.

PAVICH: I think so.

GREENE: Alright, now I have two very serious questions for you.

PAVICH: Excellent. Bring it on.

GREENE: Did you do LSD with Alejandro Jodorowsky?

PAVICH: You know, he lives a completely dry life. He doesn’t drink alcohol, he doesn’t do anything like that. He claims that he’s only done LSD one time in his life, that he paid $17,000 to a shaman in New York City to dye him on his trip. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s what he claims. Actually I saw him last night, he’s in New York, and we spent a little time together. We sat in his hotel room and drank pineapple juice. That’s how he lives so long. If he was a drug-fueled madman, I don’t think he’d be with us today. He lives a very clean, very pure life. It’s very interesting.

GREENE: It’s not what you’d expect. But it’s another one of those things to admire about him. He can be so bizarre without having to rely on drugs.

PAVICH: Exactly. He is what he is. He has these spiritual visions with his projects, and that somehow just comes naturally to him. It’s amazing. But good question, I haven’t been asked that one before. Fantastic.

GREENE: Speaking of drug-fueled madmen, did you approach Mick Jagger to talk about the film?

PAVICH: You know, we didn’t, because he was such a minor player in this whole story, that it would’ve felt too much like stunt casting. If Mick Jagger was going to play the lead role in the film, that would’ve been different. If David Carradine was still alive, then we definitely would’ve approached him, or had him involved, or Orson Welles, or Salvador Dali. But I think Mick Jagger was such a minor thing, that it just would’ve felt false. I never appreciate documentaries that had that kind of stunt casting. “What is this famous person doing here that really has no connection to anything?” I went for a limited number of voices, which let’s you get to know each one of them on a deeper level.

GREENE: I totally agree, I was just curious.

PAVICH: Of course.

GREENE: We’ve kind of touched on it previously, but seeing Moebius, Chris Foss and H.R. Giger’s artwork come to life on film were some of my favorite parts. It’s just so beautiful. I got the sense that you could fill another 90 minutes of all the concept art produced by these guys.

PAVICH: If we had filmed Jodorowsky’s entire bible, the movie would’ve gone for over 20 hours like Jodorowsky wanted!

GREENE & PAVICH: [laughs]

GREENE: I think that covers most of it. I’ll make us both sound more intelligent, mostly me.

PAVICH: Excellent. [laughter]